Christopher Soper and Abdur-Rahman Abou Almajd in dialog about European Muslims.

J. Christopher Soper

Professor of Political Science at Pepperdine University in Los Angeles, California, he did not write books about Muslims in west like "Muslims and the State in Britain, France and Germany" (2005) with Joel S. Fetzer but he also does his research on Muslims in the West, for example on Religion and Politics in Comparative Perspectives "The Not So Naked Public Square: Islam and the State in Western Europe," co-authored with Joel Fetzer, Orient [Berlin] 2010.

Muslims and the State in Britain, France, and Germany, co-authored with Joel Fetzer, 2005.

Evangelical Christianity in the United States and Great Britain: Religious Beliefs, Political Choices 1994.

It's very important to chat with him about Muslims in the West as he is very interested in studying Muslims in many western countries.

First of all, I thank my friend Professor Joel Fetzer for introducing him to me very much.

Q: Professor Fetzer told me that  European Muslims tend to use moderate means to achieve their goals, what should you add to achieve their goals?

Chris.: European Muslims use moderate means because the political systems in Europe are generally open to those who wish to wish to express their political grievances in that way.  I very much believe that movements =-- religious and otherwise -- adapt their strategies to the opportunities at their disposal.  In political systems that are responsive to what I would call "ordinary politics" (i.e. voting, mobilizing interest groups, lobbying elected officials, using the courts) a political movement has less reason to have to make use of unconventional tactics, which might include violence.

Q: Do you agree that the society wholeheartedly rejects them and segregates them into a kind of hermetically sealed box of poverty and discrimination?

Chris.: I think that this would be an overstatement.  It is true that European Muslims are disproportionately poor, have less education than the norm, and are disadvantaged in various ways.  As a result, they face a series of genuine obstacles and there are some who "wholeheartedly reject them", as you say.  However, that proportion of the population is relatively small, in my opinion, and I am cautiously optimistic that with time European Muslims will successfully integrate as have other immigrant groups in the past.

Q: Why should not Islam become part of the "normal" religious landscape of North America and Western Europe just as Catholicism is today in majority-Protestant nations?

Chris.: I think that it will, with time. The problem is more acute in European cou ntries, I think, than it is in the United States.  The US has a long history of dealing with religious minorities, and while that history is far from perfect the general trend has been for those religious newcomers to become a part of the fabric of American culture.  Also, American culture is generally less secular than its European counterparts are more affirming of religious worldviews.  I fully expect that to happen for American Muslims.  Europe is more complicated because it does not have the same rich history of dealing successfully with religious minorities, and it is more secular and less affirming of religion generally.  Moreover, Europe is much less religiously pluralistic than is the US.  It does not have the same history of dealing effectively with non-Christian religious groups.  So, it may take more time in Europe for the development of what you describe as a "normal" religious landscape to develop.

Q: Across the three countries you studied, e.g., white nominal Catholics in France, or white nominal Christians in Germany or white Christians in the U.S, You focus on the impact of each nation's church-state relationship. it said that Catholics are more violent than others, many Protestants asserted that Catholicism and liberal democracy were incompatible and that Catholics were more prone to violence.  Could you elaborate on that?

Chris.: I hope we did not suggest that Catholics were more violent than Protestants.  That was certainly not what we intended to say.  The point we were trying to make is that there was a time in the US and England, to take two cases, when Catholics were perceived by some people as a threat to national and democratic values.  In the US, there was a specific movement against Catholics and in the UK there were certain political and social disadvantages associated with being Catholic.  However, those views quickly died down, in large part because Catholics in both countries effectively integrated into the values of their respective societies and Protestants recognized that Catholics were not, in fact, a threat to the state or to democracy.

Q: When do you think Muslim Germans, Muslim Americans, etc., should be seen as just as much a part of ordinary society as are Catholic Americans today?

Chris.: I think it will take more time for this transformation to take place in Europe than in the United States, for many of the reasons I noted in a previous question.  Europe is more secular and less sympathetic to the expression of religious values than is the United States, and it has less of a history dealing with genuine religious pluralism.  But, I can't help but to be optimistic that Muslims will eventually come to be seen as part of "ordinary society", as you put it.  It is also important to point out that just as the US and Europe are being changed by their experience with Muslims, European Muslims are also being transformed.  I fully expect that the development of Islam in the US and Europe will look different from the Islam that is practiced in other parts of the world.

Q: Though Islam is the religion of peace, The majority populations in Europe and No rth America are very likely to see Muslims as a cultural threat Could you elaborate on that?

Chris.: Again, I would avoid such grand generalizations.  It depends a lot on what question you ask people if a majority of Americans or Europeans see Muslims as a "cultural threat."  There certainly are some, but I don't know that it would constitute a majority.  To the extent that people do perceive Islam to be a cultural threat, it would come from two different arguments.

First, some would want to assert the Christian heritage of Europe and the US and would see Islam as inconsistent with that heritage.

Second, some would focus on a set of liberal political values (tolerance, gay rights, gender equality) and would believe that the practice of orthodox Islam is not consistent with those values.  This combination of arguments was manifest, for example, in the recent referendum vote in Switzerland that banned the construction of minarets.

Q: You wrote "The Not So Naked Public Square: Islam and the State in Western Europe," co-authored with Joel Fetzer, Orient [Berlin] 2010 And you wrote "Religious Institutions, Church-State History and Muslim Mobilization in Britain, France, and Germany," , Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies 33, 6, (August 2007) what do you see in the future fo Muslims live in Western Europe?

Chris.: I think that there will be some bumps in the road and that will include some efforts politically to demonize European Muslims, but on the whole I think that Europe will come to accept Muslims and that Muslims will embrace their home in Europe.

Q: In your book with Stephen V. Monsma " The Challenge of Pluralism:Church and State in Five Western Democracies, 2008" Which church plays the important role and what about effecting on immigrant Muslims?

Chris.: That depends a lot on the particular country.  It would, in short, be hard to generalize about what church is more or less supportive of Muslims.  In general, however, I have found that church leaders, if not all the members of those churches, are generally pretty sympathetic to and supportive of Muslims.  What they sometimes realize is that Muslims and Christians have a lot more in common than some might imagine.

Q: You are very interested in Religion and Politics in Comparative Perspectives; you did a great research, Could you elaborate on that statement?

Chris.: The best way to understand the role of religion in one country is to examine what role religion plays in a different country.  Moreover, comparative analysis is an ideal way to imagine models that one might wish to emulate or reject in your own country.  So, for example, if I were a Muslim living in Egypt and was imagining how to deal with religion in the newly created Constitution, I might see how  other majority Islamic countries deal with religion, particularly those with a sizeable religious minority.  What I would be looking for is a model that fully and deeply respects and protects the right of all persons to believe or not believe what they wish, while at the same time allowing religion to flourish without coercion or support from the state.

Q: Is the demonization of political Islamism in Western Europe an overstatement?

Chris.: Sadly, there are people who demonize Islam in Western Europe, so it is not an overstatement to suggest that some people do this.  Those people get more attention than they deserve, and unfortunately they sometimes demonize Islam for political advantage.  It is an overstatement, however, to suggest that all Europeans -- or even a majority of them in most countries -- are equally guilty of this demonization.

Q: What is your advice for western church and immigrant Muslims?

Chris.: Immigrant Muslims, in my view, should seek political, social, and political alliances with other religious people in their adopted country. Although Europe is increasingly secular, churches still have considerable political power and social influence.  It makes good sense, in my view, for Muslims to reach out to other religious voices in their new country, just as it makes sense for those established religious persons to welcome Muslims.